Capitalism not working?

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JimmyBlind
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by JimmyBlind » 28 Oct 2008, 15:41

It was meant as a lay analogy dude (c4mpy), to emphasise what is in our human nature to be greedy. The same principal applies on an evolved level.

The human coveting of luxury items is a statement of power.
Even Kids felt they were the bees knees if they turned up with a pair of brand new Reebok Pumps. He was the cool kid. The kid with the £8 Gola's was always inferior to him.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by JimmyBlind » 28 Oct 2008, 15:42

chippy wrote:
campy wrote:This is an example of what I see as an archaic (sorry Jimmy) way of thinking. As a race we are way beyond the necessity to survive, all our wonderful technological advances have taken care of that. So isn't it time we stopped trying to survive as hard as possible by buying bmws and six bedroom houses and do things differently?


The thing is, I don't think it's a way of thinking so much as it's something deep within our instincts. There are no sabre toothed tigers or constant threat of starvation, but the survival/hunter gatherer instinct is still there, and ends up instead driving us to the acquisition of big cars and high end electronic goods. Not that that makes it right, of course, but it does make it a lot harder to change your thinking.



Essentially this.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by campy » 28 Oct 2008, 15:53

chippy wrote:Not that that makes it right, of course, but it does make it a lot harder to change your thinking.


Essentially this.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by chippy » 28 Oct 2008, 15:55

The more I post, the more I find this difficult to think about. A few years ago I was a lot more idealistic and would have been the first to be shouting fuck capitalism. But now I think that's just too broad a generalisation to just attack some economic principles. It puts Microsoft, the nice hippy girl running a stall selling hats she's made, and your friendly local drug dealer all into the same box. Yes, there are evil money grabbing corporations, but there are also quite a few with a social conscience that plough millions of pounds into community projects, reducing their carbon footprints and trying to give something back. Capitalism is essentially just trade, and I honestly feel trade is one of the fundamental things that make us what we are as a race. It's something you don't see animals do.

It's like saying FUCK SCIENCE because someone made a bomb. :(
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by JimmyBlind » 28 Oct 2008, 17:01

It's difficult, because mankind has naturally evolved this way. Mankind's will brought us to this position. To oppose the way we have done things is to contradict ourselves... Or something.


The success of a business rest on the many people working within that business, for their own personal benefit. Quite rightly, everyone does what is best for themselves. Although we see the economy as this monumental & unfathomably complex network, it is manifested by individual people with their own 'selfish' goals.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by Tomaroundtheworld » 28 Oct 2008, 17:48

chippy wrote:The more I post, the more I find this difficult to think about. A few years ago I was a lot more idealistic and would have been the first to be shouting fuck capitalism. But now I think that's just too broad a generalisation to just attack some economic principles. It puts Microsoft, the nice hippy girl running a stall selling hats she's made, and your friendly local drug dealer all into the same box. Yes, there are evil money grabbing corporations, but there are also quite a few with a social conscience that plough millions of pounds into community projects, reducing their carbon footprints and trying to give something back. Capitalism is essentially just trade, and I honestly feel trade is one of the fundamental things that make us what we are as a race. It's something you don't see animals do.

It's like saying FUCK SCIENCE because someone made a bomb. :(


The problem is that politics and economics and all the labels and theories relating to them have become so distorted and incestuous that you can't really just pick one strand and attack it nowadays. I've always found that to be the case with broad theories in any academic area. Or I suppose with a lot of different aspects of life. You can't call a club night a "rock" night, or a "dance" night any more, because those terms are so loose that it doesn't really represent what they mean.

I agree with most of what you've been saying throughout the thread though. I think it would be difficult for society to develop the way it has without at least some capitalist ideas. At the moment though, a lot of the evil and wrongdoings in the world stem from how capitalism has been applied, and allowed to thrive. And there's no easy answer as to how to solve that problem. Socialists have been trying for years to convince people that capitalism is evil - the fact that we've just admitted that we're heading into a recession is just another opportunity for them to say "I told you so" without offering an entirely convincing argument. I think I'm similar to Joe in that a lot of my politics rely far too much on human nature being inherently good, and are obviously far too idealistic. I'd just love some of the world's greediest and richest to step out of their shell, even just a little bit and try to appreciate what it's like for everyone else. I don't think you can instantly blame the millionaires who were brought up in wealth, privately educated and carried on up the ladder for not having any perspective. Not everyone is Siddhartha Gautama. I used to always find it frustrating when people didn't understand or appreciate the level of poverty there is around the world, but until you've actually come face to face with it, I think it's difficult to really comprehend.

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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by chippy » 30 Oct 2008, 15:48

What happened to Gary?
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by fotch » 30 Oct 2008, 17:01

chippy wrote:What happened to Gary?


He's now the CEO of a large multinational corporation and is in India, looking to outsource their manufacturing base.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by phillip_banks » 30 Oct 2008, 18:39

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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by garymcnally » 04 Nov 2008, 12:29

So I was in London with no chance of getting online.

Had a quick read through some of the posts and there are SOOOO many arguments that I have heard thousands of times before and I have answers for but not time to write out all the answers.

To be anti-capitalist you don't have to live in a homemade tent and be totaly self reliant by eating the sweat from your arse crack. There is nothing wrong with being anti-capitalist and shopping in Tesco. The important thing is to be against the system and campaign on the problems caused by the capitalist system.

Also I don't think capitalism is "evil". I think that at one point the capitalist mode of production was what was required by society to break free of feudal monarchies and to build the productive capabilities to provide a good standard of living for all. Now we can provide for all but we don't. This is because people are still making a profit from things like food and shelter which should be a right, not a commodity to be bought and sold.

Chippy also said something along the lines of "so your argument against capitalism is that your boss might fuck up and you could lose your job".

The problem is, in a society where the prime objective is the massive growth of profit and NOT the massive production of shit we all need to survive, that people will take stupid risks, this system encourages stupid decisions to be made all the time.

There are also things like the Tendancy of the rate of profit to decline (something that I reccomend people look up as I don't have enough time to explain) which will always cause slumps recessions and crashes to occour even without retarded decisions by bosses.

Also losing your job may not seem like a problem, but remember in recessions jobs become scarce, so your likelihood of getting a new job plummets. Your income becomes whatever the dole is at the time (about £45 when I was last on it) so you cant spend as much. The more unemployed people there are, the less disposable income being spent, the less being spent, the unhealthier the economy.

Also when there are recessions like the one we are inevitebly heading into right now, Fascist partys like the BNP and other fuckers from the far right like UKIP can make huge grounds by exploiting racial prejudices and myths about immigration.

All in all I think capitalism is fucked.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by JimmyBlind » 04 Nov 2008, 16:42

The collective self interests of every working person define 'capitalism'. I think you have to blame people.

People don't consciously seek to sabotage the economy either. People go to work to earn money to provide for themselves & their families. People only do what is in the best interests of themselves. People work harder, work their way up the ladder & are rewarded for their efforts. Do people do this for the benefit of a company? No. As a product of individual self success, the company develops & grows. As I work harder for my own financial & carreer goals, so do my colleagues. The success of the buisness is a product of the efforts of those people with completely unrelated, personal motives.
When we talk about capitalism, are we talking trade or trade to make a profit? Buisnesses trade to make profit to fund their expansion. By expanding they can acheive more in a conscious bid to monopolise the market and keep it's workers in employment. This is where the problem lies and this is precisely what Tesco does when it cuts the private shop owner out of the market.
Humans have always formed tribes, villages, guilds & armies. Being part of a collective is beneficial to you as an individual. The same principal applies in modern buisness.
I still don't really know what the fuck Anti or Pro-capitalism is actually so I like to think that I am far from supporting either. The real problem lies at a much deeper source and in my opinion, capitalism is just some vague, overhead descriptive for man always instinctively doing what is best for himself.


...and If you'll permit me to have another pop at whining, hypocritical, anti-establisment types again, I'd like to quote someone close to me...

"Another irony I've noticed over the years, is that pretty much every anti-capitalist, pseudo-anarchic 'smash the system' individual I've ever met, tends to take drugs and believe that this is somehow an integral part of striving for a better universe. The illicit drugs trade being just about the most brutal form of unethical capitalism I can imagine. It makes Primark using Vietnamese children in murky sweat shops look like an act of shining charity by comparison"
Regards,

Jim

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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by garymcnally » 04 Nov 2008, 18:24

"The collective self interests of every working person define 'capitalism'" why are the collective self interests of ordinary working people to let a small elite make billions off the back of their labour? We can do a better job of running society than they can!

"Humans have always formed tribes, villages, guilds & armies" Thats not true. armies are a product of state, states are things created to defend one class from another, so you need the formation of classes first, which requires a settled population. There are many hunter gatherer societies documented that do not have a state, or different classes and women are viewed as equal. Human nature is a hell of a lot more fluid than people think.

As for the drugs thing, it's a bit of a stereotype. I used to take drugs, i don't anymore, I usually just have a glass of wine with my girlfreind.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by campy » 04 Nov 2008, 19:54

JimmyBlind wrote:"Another irony I've noticed over the years, is that pretty much every anti-capitalist, pseudo-anarchic 'smash the system' individual I've ever met, tends to take drugs and believe that this is somehow an integral part of striving for a better universe. The illicit drugs trade being just about the most brutal form of unethical capitalism I can imagine. It makes Primark using Vietnamese children in murky sweat shops look like an act of shining charity by comparison"


The taking of illicit drugs and substances has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with personal freedom.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by fotch » 04 Nov 2008, 22:53

As for the drugs thing, it's a bit of a stereotype. I used to take drugs, i don't anymore, I usually just have a glass of wine with my girlfreind.


Made from grapes crushed by the bare and blistered feet of the downtrodden masses no doubt.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by Lord_Blacknose » 05 Nov 2008, 00:40

garymcnally wrote:I have answers for but not time to write out all the answers.



McNally's last theorum.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by JimmyBlind » 05 Nov 2008, 07:22

campy wrote:
JimmyBlind wrote:"Another irony I've noticed over the years, is that pretty much every anti-capitalist, pseudo-anarchic 'smash the system' individual I've ever met, tends to take drugs and believe that this is somehow an integral part of striving for a better universe. The illicit drugs trade being just about the most brutal form of unethical capitalism I can imagine. It makes Primark using Vietnamese children in murky sweat shops look like an act of shining charity by comparison"


The taking of illicit drugs and substances has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with personal freedom.


It's certainly to do with both. Are you defending that your 'purchasing' (not 'taking', there's a massive difference) of drugs, doesn't in some way line the un-taxed pocket of some wealthy drug dealer, ignorant to how many lives were lost getting the product to you? Are you really that naive or just in spectacular denial?
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by Meta4rik » 05 Nov 2008, 19:36

Throughout history there has been 2 basic forms of social organisations: Collectivism and individualism.

Collectivism (socialism) is the moral superior social system (but it has failed). Capitalism (individualism) is morally bankrupt, but pragmatically has worked.

Not many people are ready for a World without Capitalism. Hence why it is still working.

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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by campy » 06 Nov 2008, 09:57

JimmyBlind wrote:It's certainly to do with both. Are you defending that your 'purchasing' (not 'taking', there's a massive difference) of drugs, doesn't in some way line the un-taxed pocket of some wealthy drug dealer, ignorant to how many lives were lost getting the product to you? Are you really that naive or just in spectacular denial?


The purchasing of drugs has just as much pocket-lining-of-scum as plenty of other products which I buy as well. I don't see why you or your close friend thought to link the two issues in quite such a venomous way? Maybe its the inherent problems you mentioned within the drug trade...
JimmyBlind wrote:ignorant to how many lives were lost getting the product to you
... these arise due to prohibition, which as I said is a matter of freedom to do what we want. Also, on a personal level, I smoke what could be called (though I never have done before...) relatively ethically grown weed. Wow, I can't believe I just said/wrote that, even I think I sound like a tool.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by JimmyBlind » 06 Nov 2008, 12:56

campy wrote:
The purchasing of drugs has just as much pocket-lining-of-scum as plenty of other products which I buy as well. I don't see why you or your close friend thought to link the two issues in quite such a venomous way? Maybe its the inherent problems you mentioned within the drug trade


I'm not having a stab at you fella, so don't think I am. I wasn't even aware that you do drugs. I personally think it is every human being's right to take drugs if they want to. I don't neccessarily think it's a bad thing that they are illegal either though. They're bad for you, addictive & can indirectly wreck peoples lives & families. Even if you legalise heroine or cocaine, someone is still going to stab & mug you to fund their addiction. It's tough to weigh up what would & wouldn't improve if you legalised drugs. Another time. I digress.

Drugs were but one example. It's difficult to take seriously the political, anti-capitalist rantings of a peace-sign-sporting festival-goer, when they're nipping into their tent every half hour to snort cocaine at 50 quid a pop.
Some people really force their anarchic, political views on other people when most people just keep their views to themselves. I think if someone is going to preach down to me or anyone else about how they should live their lives & spend their money, they should be prepared to have holes picked in their arguments.

Like chippy said earlier, people are largely humanitarian & support good causes. Human beings don't enjoy seeing other human beings living in poverty, disease & oppression. Problems of the world can still be solved living in a capitalist society.

After outgoings & neccessities, I'm sure we all have a certain disposable income. Why then don't we all give our disposable income to charity? Who here or anywhere actually gives everything they do not need to charity? Is anyone glad when they get a pay-rise that they can now give more to charity or are they glad because they can now afford a new graphics card or something? You've worked hard for your money & you deserve it.
I dunno. Take what I say with a pinch of salt. It's certainly an interesting topic to discuss.
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Jim

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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by LittleTill » 04 Jan 2009, 03:32

I always click on this thread in the vague and apparently vacant hope that some one will post some sort of solution.
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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by LittleTill » 04 Jan 2009, 03:33

I always click on this thread in the vague and apparently vacant hope that some one will post some sort of solution.
Lip up fatty

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Re: Capitalism not working?

Post by chippy » 05 Jan 2009, 09:47

JimmyBlind wrote:It's difficult to take seriously the political, anti-capitalist rantings of a peace-sign-sporting festival-goer, when they're nipping into their tent every half hour to snort cocaine at 50 quid a pop.


Who takes coke at a festival anyway?
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