Demonisation of drugs..

No seriously.... serious issues in here please..

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Demonisation of drugs..

Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 13:15

An example:

http://www.registerguard.com/cgi-bin/printStory.py?name=d3.or.lsdeath.1017&date=20041017

This story is clearly bullshit. There is no agreement that a functional lethal dose exists for LSD, and if it does, it's that large a dose that's it's nigh on impossible to get hold of that amount. I am certain the toxicology reports will show some other substance killed them. If not, they freaked and had a heart attack. Which is their fucking stupid fault for taking over 12 DOSES. I mean, hello? Common sense here? :rolleyes:
This sort of thing makes me very cross, it's blatant scaremongering.
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Post by Jumpin Jack Flash » 18 Oct 2004, 13:26

so when people read this they are more likely to have bad trip ?
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 13:43

what?

i don't know, maybe. it certainly wouldn't make me have a bad trip, but I suppose if someone read it, and believe it, and then took acid, they'd probably have a bad trip, because they'd believed a factually innaccurate article about the drug they'd taken.

My point was, that it makes me cross the way drugs are potrayed in the media, the way they pounce on the chance to make any sort of point about how evil and bad drugs are, while actually getting their facts straight and good journalism go straight out the window.
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Post by Jumpin Jack Flash » 18 Oct 2004, 13:47

drugs are bad, it's well documented .
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 13:48

Thanks for your input, highly valued as ever. :rolleyes:
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Post by Jumpin Jack Flash » 18 Oct 2004, 13:51

Vegetable law
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 13:55

This kid will more than likely get manslaughter for his involvement in this. Why is this wrong? Well firstly, let's hypothetically assume that the LSD did kill her, even though that's pretty much an impossibility. So what? Shove it down her throat, did he? I don't think so.. She drank the drink he gave her and then had some of his, she was blatantly on a mission to get fucked up. She took those trips of her own free will.

If I go down to the pub, drink 24 pints and then drop dead of alcohol poisoning on the way home, is Ben gonna get put in prison? Fuck no. Are the tobacco companies being brought to justice for the thousands of people cigarettes have killed? Nope. So, he supplies her with an illegal drug, which she willingly takes, and she dies. He takes the same dose of the same drugs, and doesn't die. Yet it's his fault. Please.

The second reason he doesn't deserve manslaughter, is the plain and simple fact that it clearly wasn't the 'cid that killed her.
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Post by Jumpin Jack Flash » 18 Oct 2004, 13:59

*moves away slowly maintaining eye contact*
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Post by slim » 18 Oct 2004, 14:43

People seeling guns shouldn't be put away either, I mean they didn't fire them. So basically it's not their fault at all. Plus it's the bullet that kills people and not guns, and it's their own fault for not jumping out of the way. It really makes me cross.
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 14:45

By people selling guns, do you mean licencsed shops, smugglers and gun runners, countries supplying others with arms, or something else?

p.s. do you want to start another thread about this? it has nothing to do with mine.
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Post by slim » 18 Oct 2004, 14:48

No I don't want to start another thread. If you want to pretend you're an idiot and don't know what I mean then that's fine. Although I'd like you to give your opinions on acid not being dangerous to the girls parents.
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 14:54

I never said acid wasn't dangerous. Acid is dangerous, but that's her responsibility. Since they were doing it together and taking the same dose, I'm gonna assume he's her friend or boyfriend and not her dealer. I said it wasn't the guys fault she died, just because he gave it to her, and I said that the lethal dose was virtually unattainable. Not that you could never come to any harm taking it.

What I meant by your point having nothing to do with mine was this: a gun is an instrument designed specifically for injuring and killing. If you are supplying somebody with a gun you've got a pretty good idea what they're going to do with it. You supply someone with a gun, you can have a fairly good idea someone may die because of that. LSD is a drug designed for people to have fun, with virtually no toxicology levels. If you are supplying someone with acid you're not really expecting anyone to die. Hence why I compared it with other recreational substances, rather than lethal instruments.


There was an article a few weeks ago about a man who died of what the journalist referred to as "cannabis toxicology." You and I both know what a joke that is. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/20/ncann20.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/01/20/ixportal.html) Do you think his dealer should be getting done for manslaughter? Remember I am not condoning dealing drugs here, I just think putting him in prison for manslaughter is ridiculous. It's like me doing a load of coke with my girlfriend, one of us having a heart attack, and the other being banged up for killing them. Ridiculous.
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Post by slim » 18 Oct 2004, 15:05

Why is acid against the law? Would you let your daughter take it? You can't tell me that a dealer doesn't know it's against the law, and you can't tell me they don't know what someone is going to do with it.

I don't think the guy should be done for manslaughter, but he is not totally blameless. I was comparing it to a gun because he passed on an illegal object/device/whatever and someone died becuase of it. I'm not comparing acid to a gun, just the illegal transaction of each item and consequent outcome. some action has to be taken against the guy passing it on, not that I agree with it in this case, but that's how it works.

The whole media/drugs thing is like "Don't talk to strangers" anyway. Obviously not all strangers are bad, infact it would be impossible not to talk to strangers. but you have to get the message across that these drugs are bad, to justfy the fact they're illegal.

I dunno, I think i started to ramble there.
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 15:14

I like to think that if any of my children wanted to take it and actually decided to talk to me first (NEVER gonna happen), that I would tell them my experiences, pros and cons and let them make their own minds up. In reality, I know I'll probably change my mind if that day ever comes.

I'm not saying that the guy should be let off scot free, drugs are illegal, you pay the consequences. I just think being blamed for the girls death is both an extremely harsh weight to lay on his shoulders and to put him in prison for, when he had no idea that acid was going to kill her. Why should he? Acid related deaths are statistically speaking, incredibly rare, and never related to toxicology. Plus, as I said, it's not like a gun, which is designed to kill people. Do him for dealing, fine, no problem with that. But manslaughter? Really?

Anyways, I've really digressed, my ACTUAL point was irresonsible journalism. The LD50 (amount of something that will kill 50% of people, i.e. standard lethal dose) of acid is measure in grams per kilogram. The doses in a trip are measured in micrograms (i.e. millionths of a gram). Enough acid to poison you is literally thousands and thousands of trips. Any chemist will tell you that.
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 15:16

I prefer to ask, "why isn't alcohol against the law?"
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Post by slim » 18 Oct 2004, 15:18

Why is telling us that irresponsible?
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Post by JimmyBlind » 18 Oct 2004, 15:28

I'd say that LSD is the most mentally destructive drug you can buy. In my opinion, I'd sooner shoot up some brown than do trips again. Many big music artists have done a fuck load of Smack, been in rehab and are now clean whereas the likes of Sid Barrett have done too much acid and are now scared to leave the house. One nibble and you're nobbled.
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 15:34

OK, irresonsible in as much as that a journalist has a responsibility to reports accurate, factually correct news. Which they haven't done in this case.

I'm really not trying to say acid isn't dangerous, either. :( I totally agree with Jimmy's comments up there re: mental destruction. But I do think if two people embark on something consentually and together, the other is not to blame if something goes wrong.

The article not too clear about the context. If the guy is a dealer, he should be in trouble. Fair enough. But I assumed that given they were taking the same dose via the same method, they were friends doing a trip together. One of them had to be the one to get hold of the drugs. I also assume that, doing 12 trips, they'd probably done it before. If both these things are true, and assuming he didn't coerce her into taking it and it was something they were doing together for fun, then I consider him blameless. Shit, he had to watch his friend or girlfriend die in front of him after he'd taken 12 trips, that's one hell of a punishment.

If the circumstances were different, he may be to blame.

But, I stand by my point, which was that LSD overdose did not kill her, the same as smoking 6 joints a day for years didn't kill the other guy, unless he got pneumonia or something because of the smoking.
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Post by Jumpin Jack Flash » 18 Oct 2004, 15:37

Originally posted by JimmyBlind
I'd say that LSD is the most mentally destructive drug you can buy. In my opinion, I'd sooner shoot up some brown than do trips again. Many big music artists have done a fuck load of Smack, been in rehab and are now clean whereas the likes of Sid Barrett have done too much acid and are now scared to leave the house. One nibble and you're nobbled.


Syd Barrett didnt have any talent anyway, except See Emily Play, Arnold Lane, his solo album is dribble, but maybe at that point he was nobbled .
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Post by JimmyBlind » 18 Oct 2004, 15:48

He's completely hatstand nowadays innit.
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Post by Jumpin Jack Flash » 18 Oct 2004, 15:54

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RE: Demonisation of drugs..

Post by TobyDNA » 18 Oct 2004, 15:58

Originally posted by BrassMonkeyTom
it's blatant scaremongering.



Yes... yes it is.. Isn't that the point of publishing things like this??
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RE: Demonisation of drugs..

Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 16:07

Originally posted by TobyDNA
Originally posted by BrassMonkeyTom
it's blatant scaremongering.



Yes... yes it is.. Isn't that the point of publishing things like this??


Yes, yes it is. That's what makes me angry.
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Post by JimmyBlind » 18 Oct 2004, 16:13

But arguably, deterring people from doing drugs is a good thing. People will always be doing them off their own back but I'd argue that scaring people into not doing them (perhaps not outright lies you understand) is a positive thing and will reduce the amount of drug takers and many other problems caused by people doing drugs.
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Post by chippy » 18 Oct 2004, 16:15

Arguably, yes, perhaps measures to keep stupid people away from drugs could be a good thing.
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Post by TobyDNA » 18 Oct 2004, 16:17

Originally posted by BrassMonkeyTom
Arguably, yes, perhaps measures to keep stupid people away from drugs could be a good thing.



hmmm....Maybe not steer stupid people away.. Give them stupid amounts! Keep the smarter people away from the bad shit.
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Post by metal_dave » 28 Oct 2004, 00:39

if i discovered i had 6 weeks left to live or something, i'd try every drug i could get my hands on. acid, however, would be the last.
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Post by Lord_Blacknose » 28 Oct 2004, 00:46

you'd do smack or crack over acid?
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Post by metal_dave » 28 Oct 2004, 00:50

yeah. i might be able to do crack or smack once, see what it's like, and it have no long term effects. but if i did acid, i might end up having horrific flashbacks or something until i died. and hey, if i did get hooked on smack, i'm gonna die in six weeks anyway. i'd just rather not spend my final weeks up a lamp post or something, trying to get away from the giant firey rabbits.
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